Donny's Ramblings

On Politics: Go Shane Claiborne! (Why the Republican Party Does Not Have a Lock on the Young Christian Vote)

74 Comments

After reading this post be sure to read the discussion going on down in the comments area…

Shane Claiborne on CNN.comI was first “introduced” to Shane Claiborne a little over a year ago when Nathan Edwardson, the (very young) Lead Pastor of The Stirring in Redding, California gave me a copy of Shane’s book The Irresistible Revolution: Living as an Ordinary Radical. Shane’s book made me think about things I’ve never before considered from a Christian perspective.

CNN.com is one of the websites I read on a daily basis. Today Shane was on the front page as one of the site’s lead stories. Beneath Shane’s photograph was the headline Young Evangelicals not a lock for Republicans. Much to the chagrin of many of my Constant Readers, my heart felt great joy when reading that headline. Why? Because it is my opinion that the Republican Party is very far away from being a Party that Jesus would have endorsed. Not that I think the Democrats would fare a whole lot better, but as I’ve stated before, I personally have more respect for a person who is honest with me about issues that he knows I don’t agree with than one who deceives me by pretending to feel the same way I do just to get my vote.

Prime example: Republicans legalized abortion, yet receive a lot of the Christian vote by claiming to be against it and then doing practically nothing about it once in office (FYI: 7 of 9 current Supreme Court Justices are Republican appointed yet still do nothing about the issue so what makes anyone think yet another Republican administration will change anything?).

Our current Presidential Administration really opened my eyes. While I’m still registered as a Republican, and have been since turning 18 and receiving my right to vote, I’ll likely follow the example I set for myself during the 2004 Presidential election by NOT voting Republican this coming November. Should Senator McCain choose a very strong running mate I might change my mind, but as of now I’m strongly favoring Barack Obama.

I particularly like this quote from the article:

But these voters say views on abortion and homosexuality won’t define them in November. The environment and social justice are moving to the forefront of their discussions.

Yes! I totally agree with that sentiment! I’m not saying topics such as abortion are not important, because they are very important , but I really wish more Christians would wake up to the fact that Republican candidates should not automatically receive their vote based on these topics. As mentioned before, the Elephants have a record of being deceptive about such issues (again: Republicans, not Democrats, made abortion legal to begin with) and there are definitely better ways of spending our tax dollars than taking over a country for its oil a long, drawn out, needless war.

I’m interested in hearing your thoughts. Read this CNN article and let me know what you think about it, and your general feelings on the upcoming election. The can of worms has been opened!

74 thoughts on “On Politics: Go Shane Claiborne! (Why the Republican Party Does Not Have a Lock on the Young Christian Vote)

  1. i’m quite curious if you would ever legislate any kind of morality on anyone. don’t you realize that at any given point someone is legislating their morality on somebody else? and most certainly in a government framework. i love your blogs but sometimes i get the impression you like to speak out against the “right’ just to be shocking. not that i represent the “right” or anything.

    just my thoughts

  2. i’m quite curious if you would ever legislate any kind of morality on anyone. don’t you realize that at any given point someone is legislating their morality on somebody else? and most certainly in a government framework. i love your blogs but sometimes i get the impression you like to speak out against the “right’ just to be shocking. not that i represent the “right” or anything.

    just my thoughts

  3. ya this is a totally cool article. I myself vote Democrat most of the time and I don’t follow politicians just cuz they say that they are a Christian

  4. ya this is a totally cool article. I myself vote Democrat most of the time and I don’t follow politicians just cuz they say that they are a Christian

  5. Right or Left,

    Personally, I would not legislate morality on anyone. In Matthew 22:21 Jesus says “Render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar’s, and unto God the things that are God’s”. In Dinesh D’Souza’s book What’s So Great About Christianity the author refers to that scripture when discussing the idea of separation of Church and State. It seems to me that Jesus is more concerned about changing hearts than legislating morality. When hearts change, morality follows. Let “Caesar” pass his laws, and let Christ’s Church work on his heart.

    I don’t speak out against the “right” to be shocking, but I do get annoyed that some Christians seem to blindly follow the “right” simply because it’s what has been done for so long. We shouldn’t pledge blind allegiance to any political party and be so easily “bought off” by words, especially when the actions don’t follow those words. It blows my mind that the abortion issue is so influential in the vote of so many I’ve spoken with, yet the fact that the Republican Party made abortion legal in the first place is overlooked.

    Personally, I feel betrayed by the Republican party. Growing up in church, I was gung-ho Republican. I had not yet learned to think for myself nor to dig deeper into the facts. I felt that if a conservative talk show host such as Rush Limbaugh said it was true, by golly it must be true!

    When the Bush administration started royally screwing up our country I finally started opening my eyes and looking at the perspective of non-conservatives. I didn’t jump parties. I have not become a liberal. If I had to choose a term, it would be “moderate”. I try to consider both sides.

    When I (likely) cast my vote for Barack Obama, part of the reason I’ll do so is to make a statement, even if I’m the only one listening to my statement, that I don’t like being deceived. Barack Obama holds an opinion on abortion that I do not agree with, but at least he honestly states that opinion. The Republican Party candidates lie about their dedication to that cause. And I am getting very tired of hearing of others casting their votes based on those lying words.

    Back in 2006 there was a book written about how Republicans use Christians, written by a man who once worked for him. I just did some searching and found a story about it on MSNBC. Check this out:

    Book says Bush just using Christians

    Prior to reading about that man’s opinions I had already come to believe, in many ways, that the Republican Party has been using and manipulating Christians. It was nice to read that one of GWB’s own staff members agreed.

  6. Right or Left,

    Personally, I would not legislate morality on anyone. In Matthew 22:21 Jesus says “Render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar’s, and unto God the things that are God’s”. In Dinesh D’Souza’s book What’s So Great About Christianity the author refers to that scripture when discussing the idea of separation of Church and State. It seems to me that Jesus is more concerned about changing hearts than legislating morality. When hearts change, morality follows. Let “Caesar” pass his laws, and let Christ’s Church work on his heart.

    I don’t speak out against the “right” to be shocking, but I do get annoyed that some Christians seem to blindly follow the “right” simply because it’s what has been done for so long. We shouldn’t pledge blind allegiance to any political party and be so easily “bought off” by words, especially when the actions don’t follow those words. It blows my mind that the abortion issue is so influential in the vote of so many I’ve spoken with, yet the fact that the Republican Party made abortion legal in the first place is overlooked.

    Personally, I feel betrayed by the Republican party. Growing up in church, I was gung-ho Republican. I had not yet learned to think for myself nor to dig deeper into the facts. I felt that if a conservative talk show host such as Rush Limbaugh said it was true, by golly it must be true!

    When the Bush administration started royally screwing up our country I finally started opening my eyes and looking at the perspective of non-conservatives. I didn’t jump parties. I have not become a liberal. If I had to choose a term, it would be “moderate”. I try to consider both sides.

    When I (likely) cast my vote for Barack Obama, part of the reason I’ll do so is to make a statement, even if I’m the only one listening to my statement, that I don’t like being deceived. Barack Obama holds an opinion on abortion that I do not agree with, but at least he honestly states that opinion. The Republican Party candidates lie about their dedication to that cause. And I am getting very tired of hearing of others casting their votes based on those lying words.

    Back in 2006 there was a book written about how Republicans use Christians, written by a man who once worked for him. I just did some searching and found a story about it on MSNBC. Check this out:

    Book says Bush just using Christians

    Prior to reading about that man’s opinions I had already come to believe, in many ways, that the Republican Party has been using and manipulating Christians. It was nice to read that one of GWB’s own staff members agreed.

  7. It seems like you think Obama and McCain are the only two options. Why not consider a third/minor party or independent candidate with whom you agree almost completely? I assure you that there are enough of them running to find somebody you agree with. Some people might say that you’re throwing your vote away but I think that voting for somebody you only kind of like is really throwing it away.

    When you go to a pizza place, your only options aren’t cheese and pepperoni. Sometimes it’s okay to get sausage, veggie or even supreme.

  8. It seems like you think Obama and McCain are the only two options. Why not consider a third/minor party or independent candidate with whom you agree almost completely? I assure you that there are enough of them running to find somebody you agree with. Some people might say that you’re throwing your vote away but I think that voting for somebody you only kind of like is really throwing it away.

    When you go to a pizza place, your only options aren’t cheese and pepperoni. Sometimes it’s okay to get sausage, veggie or even supreme.

  9. Andrew,

    The idea of a third party candidate running the country is “romantic”, and I wouldn’t consider a vote for such as being wasted IF the candidate was actually qualified to run this country. Of those I’ve heard of, I can’t picture any of them doing so.

  10. Andrew,

    The idea of a third party candidate running the country is “romantic”, and I wouldn’t consider a vote for such as being wasted IF the candidate was actually qualified to run this country. Of those I’ve heard of, I can’t picture any of them doing so.

  11. Yeah….because “taking over a country for its oil” has been SO beneficial for us.

    Both the major parties in this country suck and aren’t worth their weight in feces. Neither are their endorsed candidates. It’s a lose-lose……IMHO.

  12. Yeah….because “taking over a country for its oil” has been SO beneficial for us.

    Both the major parties in this country suck and aren’t worth their weight in feces. Neither are their endorsed candidates. It’s a lose-lose……IMHO.

  13. Donny,

    You are dead on with this post! I really think that both parties completely miss the mark on social issues — poverty, homelessness, etc. These are issues that we, as Christians, should really be focused on. I feel that I have to take that into consideration when I am choosing who to vote for. The problem becomes that there are few choices.

    I like your comment that you feel “betrayed” by the Republican party. So do I, and there are many others that feel that way as well.

    Excellent post!

  14. Donny,

    You are dead on with this post! I really think that both parties completely miss the mark on social issues — poverty, homelessness, etc. These are issues that we, as Christians, should really be focused on. I feel that I have to take that into consideration when I am choosing who to vote for. The problem becomes that there are few choices.

    I like your comment that you feel “betrayed” by the Republican party. So do I, and there are many others that feel that way as well.

    Excellent post!

  15. Seems to me, Donny, that Claiborne wasn’t pushing any party at all, but was pushing Jesus! HE is the answer, after all, anyway!

    You’ll always get a response to “religion” or “political” talk. Have you noticed just how few responses you got to the bike ride??? Maybe we’re all just a bunch of big mouths, spouting off and doing absolutely nothing! Food for thought, not argument.

  16. Seems to me, Donny, that Claiborne wasn’t pushing any party at all, but was pushing Jesus! HE is the answer, after all, anyway!

    You’ll always get a response to “religion” or “political” talk. Have you noticed just how few responses you got to the bike ride??? Maybe we’re all just a bunch of big mouths, spouting off and doing absolutely nothing! Food for thought, not argument.

  17. Donny,

    I’ve been reading your blog for a while and I’ve really appreciated the work you’ve done with XXXchurch.

    When you start writing about the abortion issue, especially the political context of abortion, you are way off track.

    Abortion is the single most important political issue in American life now. A country that allows the weakest of its citizens to be slaughtered undermines the stability of its own society. Nothing de-legitimates a government’s right to rule, causes so much cynicism about it among the populace, as does a national policy of child murder.

    While it is true that the majority of justices who decided Roe v. Wade were Republican- appointed, that doesn’t mean they ruled in a way that is in line with the Republican Party platform. Those justices betrayed the voters who put into power the presidents who appointed them.

    To say “Republicans legalized abortion” is simplistic and misleading. If you read the history of how abortion became commonplace in America you’ll see the radical feminist lawyers who took Roe to the Supreme Court were not Republicans, nor were most of their supporters.

    This is not to say Republicans have been ideal on this issue. They haven’t, but some have been very good with regard to abortion. As a result of the Bush administration, taxpayer funding of abortions has been prevented, the use of international aid money for abortions overseas has been limited, and partial birth abortion has been outlawed.

    The Democrats have opposed EVERY ONE of these. So, if abortion matters to us as voters, it seems we have to choose between a party who is gung-ho about child murder, a party that makes expanding the freedom to kill children a hallmark of their political program, and one that takes a stand, though a weak and tepid one, against it.

    People like Claiborne promote the idea that abortion should be only one issue on the list of evangelical political concerns. While that is true, the problem is that he, and others of his ilk, act as though those issues ought to be equally weighted. They act as if we have no way of deciding whether stopping abortion or bad environmental practices is more important. Well, we do have a way. Claiborne may not see much difference between killing a baby and chopping down a tree, but God does and has made this clear to us.

    The idea promoted by Claiborne that there is no moral difference between voting to grant enormous power to a man who would offer slight protection to the unborn versus voting to grant the same to a man who promises to take actions GUARANTEED to increase the numbers of babies killed is specious at best.

    There are many more aspects of this controversy I could explore, but suffice it to say that stopping abortion ought to be the most important issue on every Christian’s political agenda if we mean to take seriously our obligations to the weak and the poor. No one in our society is weaker, more defenseless, than the unborn. They comprise the only group in America we allow to be butchered wholesale while we Christians sit around and debate just how important defending them really is.

    Stopping abortion, a goal whose accomplishment requires a legal and political component, is the ultimate social justice issue. Those who preach social justice while refusing to recognize the unique injustice of abortion expose their confusion or, worse, their hypocrisy to the world.

    Donny, I don’t doubt you are doing your best to sort through these issues in a way that is faithful to Christ. I encourage you to continue that process, but remember there is more to this issue than just party politics. There really is an important difference between the candidates on this issue and an important difference between this issue and all other political controversies. I pray this difference will become clear to you and countless others. So many little lives depend on it.

    All the best,

    Dean

  18. Donny,

    I’ve been reading your blog for a while and I’ve really appreciated the work you’ve done with XXXchurch.

    When you start writing about the abortion issue, especially the political context of abortion, you are way off track.

    Abortion is the single most important political issue in American life now. A country that allows the weakest of its citizens to be slaughtered undermines the stability of its own society. Nothing de-legitimates a government’s right to rule, causes so much cynicism about it among the populace, as does a national policy of child murder.

    While it is true that the majority of justices who decided Roe v. Wade were Republican- appointed, that doesn’t mean they ruled in a way that is in line with the Republican Party platform. Those justices betrayed the voters who put into power the presidents who appointed them.

    To say “Republicans legalized abortion” is simplistic and misleading. If you read the history of how abortion became commonplace in America you’ll see the radical feminist lawyers who took Roe to the Supreme Court were not Republicans, nor were most of their supporters.

    This is not to say Republicans have been ideal on this issue. They haven’t, but some have been very good with regard to abortion. As a result of the Bush administration, taxpayer funding of abortions has been prevented, the use of international aid money for abortions overseas has been limited, and partial birth abortion has been outlawed.

    The Democrats have opposed EVERY ONE of these. So, if abortion matters to us as voters, it seems we have to choose between a party who is gung-ho about child murder, a party that makes expanding the freedom to kill children a hallmark of their political program, and one that takes a stand, though a weak and tepid one, against it.

    People like Claiborne promote the idea that abortion should be only one issue on the list of evangelical political concerns. While that is true, the problem is that he, and others of his ilk, act as though those issues ought to be equally weighted. They act as if we have no way of deciding whether stopping abortion or bad environmental practices is more important. Well, we do have a way. Claiborne may not see much difference between killing a baby and chopping down a tree, but God does and has made this clear to us.

    The idea promoted by Claiborne that there is no moral difference between voting to grant enormous power to a man who would offer slight protection to the unborn versus voting to grant the same to a man who promises to take actions GUARANTEED to increase the numbers of babies killed is specious at best.

    There are many more aspects of this controversy I could explore, but suffice it to say that stopping abortion ought to be the most important issue on every Christian’s political agenda if we mean to take seriously our obligations to the weak and the poor. No one in our society is weaker, more defenseless, than the unborn. They comprise the only group in America we allow to be butchered wholesale while we Christians sit around and debate just how important defending them really is.

    Stopping abortion, a goal whose accomplishment requires a legal and political component, is the ultimate social justice issue. Those who preach social justice while refusing to recognize the unique injustice of abortion expose their confusion or, worse, their hypocrisy to the world.

    Donny, I don’t doubt you are doing your best to sort through these issues in a way that is faithful to Christ. I encourage you to continue that process, but remember there is more to this issue than just party politics. There really is an important difference between the candidates on this issue and an important difference between this issue and all other political controversies. I pray this difference will become clear to you and countless others. So many little lives depend on it.

    All the best,

    Dean

  19. Thanks for the reply. I couldnt disagree with you more because in this country WE ARE CAESAR. We determine what goes on and what gets passed as citizens. Almost like running our own household so-to-speak. I totally agree with you that hearts need to be changed. That is the ideal, no doubt. But in the meantime we shouldnt let go of one thing to hold onto the other. Look at california for example regarding homosexual marriage. Do you realize that if they legalize that permanently, there could be discrimination lawsuits for pastors and even city clerks who refuse to take part in it for conscience reasons? And i do believe that currently there are cases of the like. That is an example of them legislating THEIR morality on others. And believe me, its not going to stop there. In canada pastors are not even allowed to read passages from the bible that condemn homosexuality. They will get prosecuted if they do and its going on right now. Believe me there has been talk of incorporating that sort of thing in washington, even if its in smaller steps. And if it wasnt for certain organizations getting involved wed get steamrolled in the same direction as canada. Again i totally agree with you that peoples hearts need to be changed, but i also do not want my children not being able to say mommy or daddy in school, but instead having to be taught that every lifestyle is ok.

    thanks man!

  20. Thanks for the reply. I couldnt disagree with you more because in this country WE ARE CAESAR. We determine what goes on and what gets passed as citizens. Almost like running our own household so-to-speak. I totally agree with you that hearts need to be changed. That is the ideal, no doubt. But in the meantime we shouldnt let go of one thing to hold onto the other. Look at california for example regarding homosexual marriage. Do you realize that if they legalize that permanently, there could be discrimination lawsuits for pastors and even city clerks who refuse to take part in it for conscience reasons? And i do believe that currently there are cases of the like. That is an example of them legislating THEIR morality on others. And believe me, its not going to stop there. In canada pastors are not even allowed to read passages from the bible that condemn homosexuality. They will get prosecuted if they do and its going on right now. Believe me there has been talk of incorporating that sort of thing in washington, even if its in smaller steps. And if it wasnt for certain organizations getting involved wed get steamrolled in the same direction as canada. Again i totally agree with you that peoples hearts need to be changed, but i also do not want my children not being able to say mommy or daddy in school, but instead having to be taught that every lifestyle is ok.

    thanks man!

  21. Donny,

    I’ve cross-posted this letter at my blog. You are welcome to join the discussion over there as well.

  22. Donny,

    I’ve cross-posted this letter at my blog. You are welcome to join the discussion over there as well.

  23. Jean Wrote:

    Seems to me, Donny, that Claiborne wasn’t pushing any party at all, but was pushing Jesus! HE is the answer, after all, anyway!

    I agree with this statement 100%, Jean. Nowhere in my post did I say that Claiborne supported Democrats. I clearly stated both parties are messed up. My point, however, is that I will be voting against the Republican Party (unless I’m somehow inspired by the VP choice) because the Republican Party purposely lies to Christian voters in an attempt to manipulate us with those lies… most frequently when it comes to their stance on abortion and their commitment to it. It’s time to stop blindly believing the lies.

    John,

    I honestly lean towards thinking that you’ve been listening to too much conservative talk radio. The sky isn’t falling, I promise.

    Dean,

    I would challenge you to think outside the party lines and consider whether or not it is life, or American life, that you value most… because if you are concerned with ALL of human life how can you justify the civilian deaths our country has wreaked on so many other countries (not just Iraq), normally under Republican orders? ALL HUMAN LIFE is sacred. I’m sure you’ll reply that you already know and agree with this, but has it truly sunk in how many lives we’ve ended in our pursuit of oil alone? If you consider JUST that, how can you vote Republican in good conscience if you’ve sort[ed] through these issues in a way that is faithful to Christ? If voting for a Democrat who is of the wrong opinion on the abortion issue is so repugnant, so too MUST be voting for a Republican who is pro-war. There are many countries in this world that are ruled by horrible men, whose people would be better off without them in power, but do we run to the aid of each of them? We do not, so using that excuse to kill thousands upon thousands of Iraqi civilians does not hold water. And only the most ignorant of us will believe that Iraq has anything to do with a “war on terror”.

    One more thing I’d like to bring up about the topic of abortion is this: where is the long term thinking? Don’t you think God, who is outside the bounds of space and time and therefore not looking for short term results, would like His people to work on the ROOT CAUSE of the problem, rather than simply bandaging the wounds?

    If we worked on root causes, abortion wouldn’t be such an issue. We need to work on hearts. We need to educate kids about WHY they should avoid sexual activity that leads to pregnancy (and not just “because the Bible says so” either). We need to foster an atmosphere where expectant mothers have options that feel “real” and not just lip-service.

    Have you adopted a child, for example? Has every able bodied person in your church adopted a child? Lord knows, many of those who are of the mindset to even CONSIDER abortion are likely not capable parent material. How many of them would consider an option like the one I’m about to describe…

    A church not far from the town in which I live has a big billboard they rent on a monthly basis that says “Please don’t abort your child. We’ll adopt it!” How many abortions would be prevented in this country if every single church in America ran the same campaign? If we REALLY BELIEVE abortion to be the most important issue our churches face, why do we NOT spend a huge percentage of the church budget on programs that will reduce it? The laws aren’t changing anytime soon, so why don’t we pay more than lip service?

    As much as I hate abortion, I have to say that it is NOT the most important issue at hand. Changing hearts is the most important issue at hand! Legislation will NEVER change hearts, ever! The ROOT CAUSE of abortion is “heart failure”. The treatment is the pure, non-judgmental love of Jesus Christ, embodied without agenda by those who follow him… NOT another Republican appointed Supreme Court Justice. 78% (7 out of 9) of our current Supreme Court Justices were Republican appointed. Obviously a Republican majority on the Supreme Court isn’t going to make abortion go away, so why do we vote as if it will?

    LOVE wins. LAWS do not.

  24. Jean Wrote:

    Seems to me, Donny, that Claiborne wasn’t pushing any party at all, but was pushing Jesus! HE is the answer, after all, anyway!

    I agree with this statement 100%, Jean. Nowhere in my post did I say that Claiborne supported Democrats. I clearly stated both parties are messed up. My point, however, is that I will be voting against the Republican Party (unless I’m somehow inspired by the VP choice) because the Republican Party purposely lies to Christian voters in an attempt to manipulate us with those lies… most frequently when it comes to their stance on abortion and their commitment to it. It’s time to stop blindly believing the lies.

    John,

    I honestly lean towards thinking that you’ve been listening to too much conservative talk radio. The sky isn’t falling, I promise.

    Dean,

    I would challenge you to think outside the party lines and consider whether or not it is life, or American life, that you value most… because if you are concerned with ALL of human life how can you justify the civilian deaths our country has wreaked on so many other countries (not just Iraq), normally under Republican orders? ALL HUMAN LIFE is sacred. I’m sure you’ll reply that you already know and agree with this, but has it truly sunk in how many lives we’ve ended in our pursuit of oil alone? If you consider JUST that, how can you vote Republican in good conscience if you’ve sort[ed] through these issues in a way that is faithful to Christ? If voting for a Democrat who is of the wrong opinion on the abortion issue is so repugnant, so too MUST be voting for a Republican who is pro-war. There are many countries in this world that are ruled by horrible men, whose people would be better off without them in power, but do we run to the aid of each of them? We do not, so using that excuse to kill thousands upon thousands of Iraqi civilians does not hold water. And only the most ignorant of us will believe that Iraq has anything to do with a “war on terror”.

    One more thing I’d like to bring up about the topic of abortion is this: where is the long term thinking? Don’t you think God, who is outside the bounds of space and time and therefore not looking for short term results, would like His people to work on the ROOT CAUSE of the problem, rather than simply bandaging the wounds?

    If we worked on root causes, abortion wouldn’t be such an issue. We need to work on hearts. We need to educate kids about WHY they should avoid sexual activity that leads to pregnancy (and not just “because the Bible says so” either). We need to foster an atmosphere where expectant mothers have options that feel “real” and not just lip-service.

    Have you adopted a child, for example? Has every able bodied person in your church adopted a child? Lord knows, many of those who are of the mindset to even CONSIDER abortion are likely not capable parent material. How many of them would consider an option like the one I’m about to describe…

    A church not far from the town in which I live has a big billboard they rent on a monthly basis that says “Please don’t abort your child. We’ll adopt it!” How many abortions would be prevented in this country if every single church in America ran the same campaign? If we REALLY BELIEVE abortion to be the most important issue our churches face, why do we NOT spend a huge percentage of the church budget on programs that will reduce it? The laws aren’t changing anytime soon, so why don’t we pay more than lip service?

    As much as I hate abortion, I have to say that it is NOT the most important issue at hand. Changing hearts is the most important issue at hand! Legislation will NEVER change hearts, ever! The ROOT CAUSE of abortion is “heart failure”. The treatment is the pure, non-judgmental love of Jesus Christ, embodied without agenda by those who follow him… NOT another Republican appointed Supreme Court Justice. 78% (7 out of 9) of our current Supreme Court Justices were Republican appointed. Obviously a Republican majority on the Supreme Court isn’t going to make abortion go away, so why do we vote as if it will?

    LOVE wins. LAWS do not.

  25. Im sorry but there is absolutely no reason to not take responsibility in the legislative process. And noone is saying that laws win converts. But laws are still needed and are constantly being read over, voted on, and passed. We still have to take part in that process. Laws and morality have to be upheld regardless if other people ever get around to “feeling” like or being persuaded by the reasoning behind them. That may never happen. Look at the prison population. Do we as a society lift all current and future legislation that theyve broken…. in the hopes that their hearts are more agreeable towards doing them? Of course not.

    Thanks!

  26. Im sorry but there is absolutely no reason to not take responsibility in the legislative process. And noone is saying that laws win converts. But laws are still needed and are constantly being read over, voted on, and passed. We still have to take part in that process. Laws and morality have to be upheld regardless if other people ever get around to “feeling” like or being persuaded by the reasoning behind them. That may never happen. Look at the prison population. Do we as a society lift all current and future legislation that theyve broken…. in the hopes that their hearts are more agreeable towards doing them? Of course not.

    Thanks!

  27. Donny, you’ve got to be real and realize the Democratic party lies to Christians too! Right now, the candidates are trying so hard to convince the religious right they’re OK and believe the same things. Some how they got the idea Christians might just have some interest in politics. There are hypocrite liars in both parties, I just think they’re more of them in the Dem party, starting with their presidential candidate..

  28. Donny, you’ve got to be real and realize the Democratic party lies to Christians too! Right now, the candidates are trying so hard to convince the religious right they’re OK and believe the same things. Some how they got the idea Christians might just have some interest in politics. There are hypocrite liars in both parties, I just think they’re more of them in the Dem party, starting with their presidential candidate..

  29. Hey Donny,
    I would strongly recommend that you look into the Libertarian canidate, Bob Barr. I think you would really like his platform. I have been a lifelong republican myself, and feel completely betrayed by the party. Both party’s are completely corrupt. Its a game, a game that they are winning while lining their pockets with our tax dollars. They want things to continue as the status quo, because pitting the “left” and “right” against each other is profitable for them!
    I wish people would go back and read all the words this country was founded on, and really look at our current two political parties and realize how far we have gone away from what this country was intended to be.

    Every example of the government trying to “fix” something, or run anything has been proven to be a disaster, just go stand in line at the DMV or to board an airplane and that should tell you enough about what MORE government would do. And believe me, both parties want MORE government.

    As for the point of social justice, we in the church have seriously dropped the ball, and if we think any political party will have any real effect on that, than we are already screwed. Its time for the church to stand up and take care of the poor, the forgotten, the beaten down. And it shouldn’t matter who each of us voted for. We should be able to stand shoulder to shoulder, whether you are a Obama supporter, McCain supporter, or a crazy idealist third party supporter, and care for and love one another. If we truly did that, it would change this country, and would have NOTHING to do with who was in the White House.

  30. Hey Donny,
    I would strongly recommend that you look into the Libertarian canidate, Bob Barr. I think you would really like his platform. I have been a lifelong republican myself, and feel completely betrayed by the party. Both party’s are completely corrupt. Its a game, a game that they are winning while lining their pockets with our tax dollars. They want things to continue as the status quo, because pitting the “left” and “right” against each other is profitable for them!
    I wish people would go back and read all the words this country was founded on, and really look at our current two political parties and realize how far we have gone away from what this country was intended to be.

    Every example of the government trying to “fix” something, or run anything has been proven to be a disaster, just go stand in line at the DMV or to board an airplane and that should tell you enough about what MORE government would do. And believe me, both parties want MORE government.

    As for the point of social justice, we in the church have seriously dropped the ball, and if we think any political party will have any real effect on that, than we are already screwed. Its time for the church to stand up and take care of the poor, the forgotten, the beaten down. And it shouldn’t matter who each of us voted for. We should be able to stand shoulder to shoulder, whether you are a Obama supporter, McCain supporter, or a crazy idealist third party supporter, and care for and love one another. If we truly did that, it would change this country, and would have NOTHING to do with who was in the White House.

  31. I’m not going to comment on the politics, but wanted to say that I read the book. It was amazingly challenging. You might want to try Lisa Samson’s Quaker Summer as well. It’s fiction, but not fluffy. Even somewhat hard to read because it challenges so much.

    Thanks for pointing others in his direction.

  32. I’m not going to comment on the politics, but wanted to say that I read the book. It was amazingly challenging. You might want to try Lisa Samson’s Quaker Summer as well. It’s fiction, but not fluffy. Even somewhat hard to read because it challenges so much.

    Thanks for pointing others in his direction.

  33. Very well said Dean!

    “…if abortion matters to us as voters, it seems we have to choose between a party who is gung-ho about child murder, a party that makes expanding the freedom to kill children a hallmark of their political program, and one that takes a stand, though a weak and tepid one, against it.”

    This is the way I see our choice as well.

    Obama has been called the most pro-abortion candidate ever:

    http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewCommentary.asp?Page=/Commentary/archive/200801/COM20080109b.html

    I could never give him my support.

  34. Very well said Dean!

    “…if abortion matters to us as voters, it seems we have to choose between a party who is gung-ho about child murder, a party that makes expanding the freedom to kill children a hallmark of their political program, and one that takes a stand, though a weak and tepid one, against it.”

    This is the way I see our choice as well.

    Obama has been called the most pro-abortion candidate ever:

    http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewCommentary.asp?Page=/Commentary/archive/200801/COM20080109b.html

    I could never give him my support.

  35. “…if abortion matters to us as voters, it seems we have to choose between a party who is gung-ho about child murder, a party that makes expanding the freedom to kill children a hallmark of their political program, and one that takes a stand, though a weak and tepid one, against it.”

    This is the way I see our choice as well.

    Obama has been called the most pro-abortion candidate ever:

    http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewCommentary.asp?Page=/Commentary/archive/200801/COM20080109b.html

    I could never give him my support.

    One might make the same argument for the murder going on overseas.

  36. “…if abortion matters to us as voters, it seems we have to choose between a party who is gung-ho about child murder, a party that makes expanding the freedom to kill children a hallmark of their political program, and one that takes a stand, though a weak and tepid one, against it.”

    This is the way I see our choice as well.

    Obama has been called the most pro-abortion candidate ever:

    http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewCommentary.asp?Page=/Commentary/archive/200801/COM20080109b.html

    I could never give him my support.

    One might make the same argument for the murder going on overseas.

  37. I AM NOT HAPPY WITH ANY OF THE CANDIDATES AND I AM SICK OF ALL THE MURDER THAT GOES ON IN THIS WORLD.

  38. I AM NOT HAPPY WITH ANY OF THE CANDIDATES AND I AM SICK OF ALL THE MURDER THAT GOES ON IN THIS WORLD.

  39. Donny,

    Thanks for your reply.

    I am surprised you ask me to “think outside party lines.” Where, in my previous comment, do you see some ringing endorsement of the Republican Party?

    Nowhere. Instead, you should see that I am not a party loyalist. I am a person concerned to do what is best for unborn children. If the Democrats had nominated a pro-life candidate, then there would be a real contest. As things stand, there simply isn’t.

    Your contention that the death of innocents in war is somehow the moral equivalent of abortion is off base and the rest of your first paragraph is confusing.

    You assert that our country has taken thousands of innocent lives in war, usually under Republican leadership. Do you mean like in Hiroshima and Nagasaki as we did under Democrat Harry Truman? In Vietnam under Democrats Kennedy and Johnson? On the fields of France in WWI under Democrat Woodrow Wilson?

    Next, you try to poison the well against anyone who disagrees with you. You assert “only the most ignorant of us will believe that Iraq has anything to do with a ‘war on terror.’” Such statements usually only serve as attempts to shut down discussion by labeling your opponents “ignorant” before they have even presented their case. It’s unfair and a logical fallacy to boot.

    Next, you ask why we don’t go into every country ruled by a bad man. This is a fair question and gets to the point of our discussion. The reason we don’t invade every country with a bad ruler is because no one in leadership is actually “pro-war” as you characterize them. War instead is seen as a last resort, and if we are able to affect change and ease the suffering of people around the world without war, why shouldn’t we?

    You may have seen that North Korea recently has begun dismantling some of its nuclear arms program and has made overtures of being willing to change. This was accomplished without war. Surely you don’t think that because we invaded Iraq that obligates us to have invaded N. Korea as well. War is not our blanket policy. These decisions have to be made on a case by case basis.

    This bears on our discussion of abortion in this way. While mostly everyone sees war as a sometimes necessary evil in this fallen world, Obama does not see abortion as a necessary evil, but as a positive good. Everyone can imagine a just society without war. Obama’s claim is that there can be no just society without abortion. He believes that any limitation on abortion is an injustice, a violation of women’s rights.

    Therefore, a vote for a Republican candidate will be a vote for someone who believes that war is awful but sometimes necessary. It will be a vote for someone who believes that, even in war, civilians, especially children, ought to be protected as much as possible from suffering and death. It also will be a vote for someone who believes the same concern ought to be extended to children in the womb.

    A vote for a Democrat will be a vote for someone who believes in limiting civilian casualties in war, but also will be a vote for someone who believes children in the womb are fair game, someone who wants to deny them even the flimsiest legal protections.

    You say we ought to work on the root causes of abortion. I completely agree. You say legislation will never change hearts. That is also true, but in no way indicates we ought not to continue pursuing such legislation.

    If “HEART FAILURE” is the root cause of abortion, it also is the root cause of every other kind of murder. Laws against murder do nothing to keep people from getting angry, do nothing to prevent people from wanting to kill. Does that mean we shouldn’t have laws against it?

    The purpose of laws against murder isn’t to change people’s hearts but to dissuade those who can be dissuaded by threat of punishment and to show the population that the power of the state stands ready to avenge potential murder victims. I believe the unborn deserve this same legal consideration.

    I never said legislation and politics were, by themselves, the keys to ending abortion. I said ending abortion has a legal and political component. Law and politics are arenas where our efforts are required. In recent years, Christians may have over-emphasized these areas, but that doesn’t mean we can abandon them.

    As for other means of combating abortion, you ask if I have adopted a child. Whenever I interact with people who hold your views, they ask this question. It seems as if they (maybe you) think that the truth or falsity of my claims rests on what I have or haven’t done.

    I usually refuse to answer this question, but for you I will. The answer is not yet. My wife and I will begin the adoption process sometime in the next two to three years. Does that make my arguments true?

    Babies don’t get aborted because there aren’t enough people willing to adopt them. There are many, many, many people on adoption waiting lists who desperately want those children.

    I agree with you that as Christians we aren’t doing nearly enough about this issue. You suggest spending huge amounts of our church budgets to stop abortion. I say, “Sounds great.” Let’s do it.

    Donny, you and I aren’t really that far apart on this. We both hate abortion. Thank you for initiating this discussion. I hope it proves fruitful for bridging the differences that do exist in our understandings of how to handle this painful issue.

  40. Donny,

    Thanks for your reply.

    I am surprised you ask me to “think outside party lines.” Where, in my previous comment, do you see some ringing endorsement of the Republican Party?

    Nowhere. Instead, you should see that I am not a party loyalist. I am a person concerned to do what is best for unborn children. If the Democrats had nominated a pro-life candidate, then there would be a real contest. As things stand, there simply isn’t.

    Your contention that the death of innocents in war is somehow the moral equivalent of abortion is off base and the rest of your first paragraph is confusing.

    You assert that our country has taken thousands of innocent lives in war, usually under Republican leadership. Do you mean like in Hiroshima and Nagasaki as we did under Democrat Harry Truman? In Vietnam under Democrats Kennedy and Johnson? On the fields of France in WWI under Democrat Woodrow Wilson?

    Next, you try to poison the well against anyone who disagrees with you. You assert “only the most ignorant of us will believe that Iraq has anything to do with a ‘war on terror.’” Such statements usually only serve as attempts to shut down discussion by labeling your opponents “ignorant” before they have even presented their case. It’s unfair and a logical fallacy to boot.

    Next, you ask why we don’t go into every country ruled by a bad man. This is a fair question and gets to the point of our discussion. The reason we don’t invade every country with a bad ruler is because no one in leadership is actually “pro-war” as you characterize them. War instead is seen as a last resort, and if we are able to affect change and ease the suffering of people around the world without war, why shouldn’t we?

    You may have seen that North Korea recently has begun dismantling some of its nuclear arms program and has made overtures of being willing to change. This was accomplished without war. Surely you don’t think that because we invaded Iraq that obligates us to have invaded N. Korea as well. War is not our blanket policy. These decisions have to be made on a case by case basis.

    This bears on our discussion of abortion in this way. While mostly everyone sees war as a sometimes necessary evil in this fallen world, Obama does not see abortion as a necessary evil, but as a positive good. Everyone can imagine a just society without war. Obama’s claim is that there can be no just society without abortion. He believes that any limitation on abortion is an injustice, a violation of women’s rights.

    Therefore, a vote for a Republican candidate will be a vote for someone who believes that war is awful but sometimes necessary. It will be a vote for someone who believes that, even in war, civilians, especially children, ought to be protected as much as possible from suffering and death. It also will be a vote for someone who believes the same concern ought to be extended to children in the womb.

    A vote for a Democrat will be a vote for someone who believes in limiting civilian casualties in war, but also will be a vote for someone who believes children in the womb are fair game, someone who wants to deny them even the flimsiest legal protections.

    You say we ought to work on the root causes of abortion. I completely agree. You say legislation will never change hearts. That is also true, but in no way indicates we ought not to continue pursuing such legislation.

    If “HEART FAILURE” is the root cause of abortion, it also is the root cause of every other kind of murder. Laws against murder do nothing to keep people from getting angry, do nothing to prevent people from wanting to kill. Does that mean we shouldn’t have laws against it?

    The purpose of laws against murder isn’t to change people’s hearts but to dissuade those who can be dissuaded by threat of punishment and to show the population that the power of the state stands ready to avenge potential murder victims. I believe the unborn deserve this same legal consideration.

    I never said legislation and politics were, by themselves, the keys to ending abortion. I said ending abortion has a legal and political component. Law and politics are arenas where our efforts are required. In recent years, Christians may have over-emphasized these areas, but that doesn’t mean we can abandon them.

    As for other means of combating abortion, you ask if I have adopted a child. Whenever I interact with people who hold your views, they ask this question. It seems as if they (maybe you) think that the truth or falsity of my claims rests on what I have or haven’t done.

    I usually refuse to answer this question, but for you I will. The answer is not yet. My wife and I will begin the adoption process sometime in the next two to three years. Does that make my arguments true?

    Babies don’t get aborted because there aren’t enough people willing to adopt them. There are many, many, many people on adoption waiting lists who desperately want those children.

    I agree with you that as Christians we aren’t doing nearly enough about this issue. You suggest spending huge amounts of our church budgets to stop abortion. I say, “Sounds great.” Let’s do it.

    Donny, you and I aren’t really that far apart on this. We both hate abortion. Thank you for initiating this discussion. I hope it proves fruitful for bridging the differences that do exist in our understandings of how to handle this painful issue.

  41. Hear, hear, Dean. Thanks so much for expressing your (and my) opinions so very well and thoughtfully. God bless you for your boldness and clarity of thought.

    My family HAS adopted children, and they waited many years to do so. Why? Most babies-to-be were aborted! With the condition a lot of families are in today, I think their own children already born should be a priority rather than adopting just because they want to “do” something!

    And, I, too, don’t appreciate being labeled “most ignorant” just because I don’t agree with your opinions. You do have a perfect right to express everything you wish, but disagreement isn’t ignorance.

  42. Hear, hear, Dean. Thanks so much for expressing your (and my) opinions so very well and thoughtfully. God bless you for your boldness and clarity of thought.

    My family HAS adopted children, and they waited many years to do so. Why? Most babies-to-be were aborted! With the condition a lot of families are in today, I think their own children already born should be a priority rather than adopting just because they want to “do” something!

    And, I, too, don’t appreciate being labeled “most ignorant” just because I don’t agree with your opinions. You do have a perfect right to express everything you wish, but disagreement isn’t ignorance.

  43. Jean and Dean,

    Unless you believe Iraq has anything to do with the war on terror, you were not called “ignorant”. As you know, having read my comment, I clearly stated:

    only the most ignorant of us will believe that Iraq has anything to do with a ‘war on terror’.

    If you DO believe Iraq has ANYTHING to do with the war on terror, you would accurately be labeled as being ignorant. That is not an insult. The definition of ignorant is unaware because of a lack of relevant information or knowledge. If a person truly thinks Iraq has anything to do with the war on terror, it’s obvious that there’s a “lack of relevant information or knowledge”.

    And if a person truly believes our current administration went into Iraq as a last resort, as Dean implies, that too is a clear lack of relevant information or knowledge. Someone just hasn’t been paying attention to all the admissions the administration has made. Usually the blame is placed on (cough cough) faulty intelligence. In other words: we wanted to do what we wanted to do and we made up reasons to do it.

    Our current President’s approval rating is at a record setting LOW. Most people aren’t fooled. And while I highly respect John McCain’s war record, and also like the fact that’s he’s more “liberal” than most Republicans, I’m pretty convinced his administration would just be “more of the same”.

    As for voting based on the topic of abortion, I’d like to point out that ANY person who makes election decisions based on sanctity of life issues cannot vote Republican OR Democrat. No offense is intended by this next statement, but it’s true… Jean, Tracy, Dean and others who have voiced concerns about this issue: all of you will have to vote for an independent candidate this year if you’re really going to live up to what you’ve stated here.

    An FYI: Obama is NOT pro-abortion. He’s pro-choice, meaning he believes in the right to let people choose. Nobody is “pro-abortion”. Personally, I think people need to “choose” to take responsibility for their actions and “choose” to avoid getting pregnant in the first place.

    I am still bamboozled that a HUGE fact is being overlooked here: Abortion wouldn’t even be an issue if Republican appointed Justices hadn’t legalized it in 1973. Republican appointed. Republican.

  44. Jean and Dean,

    Unless you believe Iraq has anything to do with the war on terror, you were not called “ignorant”. As you know, having read my comment, I clearly stated:

    only the most ignorant of us will believe that Iraq has anything to do with a ‘war on terror’.

    If you DO believe Iraq has ANYTHING to do with the war on terror, you would accurately be labeled as being ignorant. That is not an insult. The definition of ignorant is unaware because of a lack of relevant information or knowledge. If a person truly thinks Iraq has anything to do with the war on terror, it’s obvious that there’s a “lack of relevant information or knowledge”.

    And if a person truly believes our current administration went into Iraq as a last resort, as Dean implies, that too is a clear lack of relevant information or knowledge. Someone just hasn’t been paying attention to all the admissions the administration has made. Usually the blame is placed on (cough cough) faulty intelligence. In other words: we wanted to do what we wanted to do and we made up reasons to do it.

    Our current President’s approval rating is at a record setting LOW. Most people aren’t fooled. And while I highly respect John McCain’s war record, and also like the fact that’s he’s more “liberal” than most Republicans, I’m pretty convinced his administration would just be “more of the same”.

    As for voting based on the topic of abortion, I’d like to point out that ANY person who makes election decisions based on sanctity of life issues cannot vote Republican OR Democrat. No offense is intended by this next statement, but it’s true… Jean, Tracy, Dean and others who have voiced concerns about this issue: all of you will have to vote for an independent candidate this year if you’re really going to live up to what you’ve stated here.

    An FYI: Obama is NOT pro-abortion. He’s pro-choice, meaning he believes in the right to let people choose. Nobody is “pro-abortion”. Personally, I think people need to “choose” to take responsibility for their actions and “choose” to avoid getting pregnant in the first place.

    I am still bamboozled that a HUGE fact is being overlooked here: Abortion wouldn’t even be an issue if Republican appointed Justices hadn’t legalized it in 1973. Republican appointed. Republican.

  45. Donny,

    You could be right that voting for a third party candidate would be best. I don’t think it is morally required, but I am certainly considering it.

  46. Donny,

    You could be right that voting for a third party candidate would be best. I don’t think it is morally required, but I am certainly considering it.

  47. Donny, you’re assuming YOU have all the relevant information or knowledge – as if any one person does! As I recall it was a joint decision to enter Iraq.

    Happy 4th! It’s just because of this fact we all have the privilege to express our thoughts, even though they are not in agreement. We should be eternally grateful for the price paid to give us those freedoms.

  48. Donny, you’re assuming YOU have all the relevant information or knowledge – as if any one person does! As I recall it was a joint decision to enter Iraq.

    Happy 4th! It’s just because of this fact we all have the privilege to express our thoughts, even though they are not in agreement. We should be eternally grateful for the price paid to give us those freedoms.

  49. i could never vote for obama because regardless of the fact that some republicans favor abortion, obama voted for the horrible process of “partial birth abortion” where if the baby is born alive he favors killing it. that is just plain murder. i will vote for the lesser of evils if i have to. or not vote at all but to vote for obama would be to vote for everything i am against. Donny i don’t want to offend you, but concerning the Bible, if it is not all true then we may as well throw it away. Psalm138 says “God honors His word above His name.” Jesus is “the word of God”. its true that men argued over the canon of the Bible, but God is great enough to watch over His word no matter what men do. Its not surprising that satan tries to bring confusion concerning the Bible. of course he wants us to doubt God’s word. there are books you can read that show the integrity of the Bible, which i’ll find for you if your interested. steve

  50. i could never vote for obama because regardless of the fact that some republicans favor abortion, obama voted for the horrible process of “partial birth abortion” where if the baby is born alive he favors killing it. that is just plain murder. i will vote for the lesser of evils if i have to. or not vote at all but to vote for obama would be to vote for everything i am against. Donny i don’t want to offend you, but concerning the Bible, if it is not all true then we may as well throw it away. Psalm138 says “God honors His word above His name.” Jesus is “the word of God”. its true that men argued over the canon of the Bible, but God is great enough to watch over His word no matter what men do. Its not surprising that satan tries to bring confusion concerning the Bible. of course he wants us to doubt God’s word. there are books you can read that show the integrity of the Bible, which i’ll find for you if your interested. steve

  51. Interesting posts. Most Christians seem to be distracted with fighting against abortion, when the real place to to focus is turning hearts through relationship. Congress has more to do with the changes we need than the President. I’ll vote. Probably McCain. Maybe Obama, but not because he’s the trendy “black” canidate. I think there will be may votes for him by young voters just to say they were a part of the big “change”. Also there will probably be just as many racist pricks in the democratic party voting against because he’s black. This will be truly interesting. I thing the Vice presidential running mates are going to be the most influential this election. McCain better pick a good one or I’m going Obama.

  52. Interesting posts. Most Christians seem to be distracted with fighting against abortion, when the real place to to focus is turning hearts through relationship. Congress has more to do with the changes we need than the President. I’ll vote. Probably McCain. Maybe Obama, but not because he’s the trendy “black” canidate. I think there will be may votes for him by young voters just to say they were a part of the big “change”. Also there will probably be just as many racist pricks in the democratic party voting against because he’s black. This will be truly interesting. I thing the Vice presidential running mates are going to be the most influential this election. McCain better pick a good one or I’m going Obama.

  53. Partial birth abortion is when the baby is near full term, labor is induced, the birth process begins; the baby is turned around and delivered feet first, leaving the head inside the mother. Then the baby is stabbed in the back of the neck with a sharp object and his brains are sucked out. The rest of the baby is delivered to be discarded. Obviously there is no chance of survival- but in other types of abortion, on rare occasions the child survives- Obama voted that in the those cases the baby should be starved to death, no attempt should be made to save it.
    This all makes me so sick.
    My daughter would love to adopt a baby- but the requirements are so stringent, they don’t have the required income to qualify them. I have not adopted a baby- but way back in the ’60’s was a pregnant teenager and my baby was adopted by a wonderful family who I will always hold in the highest regard.
    As far as McCain, I don’t feel I know a lot about him. I feel sorry for anyone who becomes president. What an overwhelming job to take on.
    My vote for McCain will simply be a vote against Barack. I think it would be refreshing to have a black president, or a woman, or another race, but the character of the person is obviously the most important thing and from what I read about McCain, he does appear to be a man of admirable character.
    One thing that horrifies me is that there are so many people willing to take human beings out of the womb, and discard them like garbage. And so many people willing to kill each other, or blow themselves up, like the suicide bombers.
    I personally think going into Iraq was a mistake. It will not be an easy job to get us out.
    And on totally another subject, from what I see when I am out driving somewhere, many people hold their lives in little regard when they are driving their cars, also. Why is everyone in such a hurry?
    Life seems fragile and cheap these days. My opinion is that the fact that we kill so many of our unborn children has affected society’s attitude about the value of human life.
    I like the things Dean said and I agree with them.

  54. Partial birth abortion is when the baby is near full term, labor is induced, the birth process begins; the baby is turned around and delivered feet first, leaving the head inside the mother. Then the baby is stabbed in the back of the neck with a sharp object and his brains are sucked out. The rest of the baby is delivered to be discarded. Obviously there is no chance of survival- but in other types of abortion, on rare occasions the child survives- Obama voted that in the those cases the baby should be starved to death, no attempt should be made to save it.
    This all makes me so sick.
    My daughter would love to adopt a baby- but the requirements are so stringent, they don’t have the required income to qualify them. I have not adopted a baby- but way back in the ’60’s was a pregnant teenager and my baby was adopted by a wonderful family who I will always hold in the highest regard.
    As far as McCain, I don’t feel I know a lot about him. I feel sorry for anyone who becomes president. What an overwhelming job to take on.
    My vote for McCain will simply be a vote against Barack. I think it would be refreshing to have a black president, or a woman, or another race, but the character of the person is obviously the most important thing and from what I read about McCain, he does appear to be a man of admirable character.
    One thing that horrifies me is that there are so many people willing to take human beings out of the womb, and discard them like garbage. And so many people willing to kill each other, or blow themselves up, like the suicide bombers.
    I personally think going into Iraq was a mistake. It will not be an easy job to get us out.
    And on totally another subject, from what I see when I am out driving somewhere, many people hold their lives in little regard when they are driving their cars, also. Why is everyone in such a hurry?
    Life seems fragile and cheap these days. My opinion is that the fact that we kill so many of our unborn children has affected society’s attitude about the value of human life.
    I like the things Dean said and I agree with them.

  55. Hi Donny,

    I’ve been following your blog for some time now and find it pretty stimulating on many issues. However, this time I could not disagree more fervently!

    I agree, we have all the reason in the world to be disappointed with Bush/Republicans. Other than some of their specific actions, there are two reasons for that: They have not delivered the Christian agenda, on anything. They have been in power for eight years.

    Both of these reasons are par for the course, however. Political operators will NEVER deliver the Christian agenda. In a democracy and in a country where even Christians are showing constant disregard for the absoluteness of God’s standards as well as Truth, politicians of any shade will continue to run us over, unless we happen to build enough groundswell on any issues to make a difference. Even then, manipulators will try to defeat what should rightfully be done by the will of the people (see the outrageous misconduct of justice where ONE judge constituted enough of a vote to run over the express will of the people of California not to recognize an institution as grossly perverted as “gay” “marriage.”). The government that we are called to pray for always has and always will be evil. The people who first received this command in Biblical times knew that better than we ever will.

    Second, Republicans have been (to various degrees) in power for eight years now. That makes it easy to throw stones. These last eight years have been exceptionally difficult, whether it’s 9-11, the dot.com and housing busts, the “culture war” etc. Along with that, Christians are showing a growing willingness to abandon the call to righteousness and go along with the “politically correct” agenda. As another contributor already pointed out, look where that got Canada! The media, not very often a friend of the cause of Christ, has been eating it up. Bush is now being blamed for executing policies that, yes, he spear headed, but that were also (and continue to be to this day in voting records) supported by his opposition that so verbally denounces them now out of the other side of their mouths.

    Which brings me to my point: I am amazed, appalled, and aghast that the US population is now seriously considering to settle for a man who has (a) no apparent qualifications or track record, (b) offers nothing but rhetoric (Goebbels had that too!) on something as vague as “change”–for the good or better, who is to say, (c) offers a voting record that smacks of naiveté, radicalism, anti-Christian values while now pandering to Christians with gross Bible misinterpretations (not to mention constitutional ignorance), (d) makes broad claims that in this democracy (which by definition is contentious between different interests) we should all gather on the platform of the lowest common denominator, get along, and sell out the rest of the few Christian values that are still protected by law. Yet this same man will not hesitate to snipe, categorize and judge his political foes in an instant while whining when the counterattacks come and claiming to be a bridge builder between the factions. This same man has no problem with surrounding himself with racists kooks (that’s right, many more than Jermiah Wright) in the name of religion, Christianity. Any white candidate with these unsavory companions could disavow his associations ten times as fervently than Obama’s lukewarm reactions ever did, and would still be looking at a dead candidacy!

    The true character of this man is becoming more and more apparent as he constantly reverses himself to appease this or that faction. Now he tells us that he is committed to ending the war–anything more specific is up in the air. Guess what, Bush offers us no less reassurance than that! He’s trying to lure in Christians while exhibiting gross ignorance of what we stand for. My point is: yes, there is much to criticize about Bush. But that justifies in no way to set up shop in the devil’s camps where the only difference is that we will be blatantly marginalized and disregarded (yet pandered to with greater hypocrisy than Bush would ever be capable of).

    The only positive that I have ever heard mentioned is the supposed Democratic passion for social justice. So far, I can’t help but think that the deep pockets that are outspending the supposed “rich” “establishment” interests of the Rebublicans (another broken Obama promise, of course) are a lot more interested in power than using their resources to help the poor who profit nothing from this campaign. But more importantly, all the government has ever provided are programs of entitlement, govenment reliance, and corrupt redistribution of wealth–always at the expense of the middle class. This is not a Biblical concept! There is no such thing as entitlement in God’s plan. We are commanded to exercise charity not promote a bloated govenment in hopes that they will do the dirty job for us–precisely the Democratic agenda!

    I agree with one of the other responses: I am not praising McCain in any particular way. The best a vote for McCain can be is a vote against Barack Hussein Obama. But perhaps that’s a good start. At least I can not think of anything better to do to oppose an anti-Christian radical in sheep’s clothing.

  56. Hi Donny,

    I’ve been following your blog for some time now and find it pretty stimulating on many issues. However, this time I could not disagree more fervently!

    I agree, we have all the reason in the world to be disappointed with Bush/Republicans. Other than some of their specific actions, there are two reasons for that: They have not delivered the Christian agenda, on anything. They have been in power for eight years.

    Both of these reasons are par for the course, however. Political operators will NEVER deliver the Christian agenda. In a democracy and in a country where even Christians are showing constant disregard for the absoluteness of God’s standards as well as Truth, politicians of any shade will continue to run us over, unless we happen to build enough groundswell on any issues to make a difference. Even then, manipulators will try to defeat what should rightfully be done by the will of the people (see the outrageous misconduct of justice where ONE judge constituted enough of a vote to run over the express will of the people of California not to recognize an institution as grossly perverted as “gay” “marriage.”). The government that we are called to pray for always has and always will be evil. The people who first received this command in Biblical times knew that better than we ever will.

    Second, Republicans have been (to various degrees) in power for eight years now. That makes it easy to throw stones. These last eight years have been exceptionally difficult, whether it’s 9-11, the dot.com and housing busts, the “culture war” etc. Along with that, Christians are showing a growing willingness to abandon the call to righteousness and go along with the “politically correct” agenda. As another contributor already pointed out, look where that got Canada! The media, not very often a friend of the cause of Christ, has been eating it up. Bush is now being blamed for executing policies that, yes, he spear headed, but that were also (and continue to be to this day in voting records) supported by his opposition that so verbally denounces them now out of the other side of their mouths.

    Which brings me to my point: I am amazed, appalled, and aghast that the US population is now seriously considering to settle for a man who has (a) no apparent qualifications or track record, (b) offers nothing but rhetoric (Goebbels had that too!) on something as vague as “change”–for the good or better, who is to say, (c) offers a voting record that smacks of naiveté, radicalism, anti-Christian values while now pandering to Christians with gross Bible misinterpretations (not to mention constitutional ignorance), (d) makes broad claims that in this democracy (which by definition is contentious between different interests) we should all gather on the platform of the lowest common denominator, get along, and sell out the rest of the few Christian values that are still protected by law. Yet this same man will not hesitate to snipe, categorize and judge his political foes in an instant while whining when the counterattacks come and claiming to be a bridge builder between the factions. This same man has no problem with surrounding himself with racists kooks (that’s right, many more than Jermiah Wright) in the name of religion, Christianity. Any white candidate with these unsavory companions could disavow his associations ten times as fervently than Obama’s lukewarm reactions ever did, and would still be looking at a dead candidacy!

    The true character of this man is becoming more and more apparent as he constantly reverses himself to appease this or that faction. Now he tells us that he is committed to ending the war–anything more specific is up in the air. Guess what, Bush offers us no less reassurance than that! He’s trying to lure in Christians while exhibiting gross ignorance of what we stand for. My point is: yes, there is much to criticize about Bush. But that justifies in no way to set up shop in the devil’s camps where the only difference is that we will be blatantly marginalized and disregarded (yet pandered to with greater hypocrisy than Bush would ever be capable of).

    The only positive that I have ever heard mentioned is the supposed Democratic passion for social justice. So far, I can’t help but think that the deep pockets that are outspending the supposed “rich” “establishment” interests of the Rebublicans (another broken Obama promise, of course) are a lot more interested in power than using their resources to help the poor who profit nothing from this campaign. But more importantly, all the government has ever provided are programs of entitlement, govenment reliance, and corrupt redistribution of wealth–always at the expense of the middle class. This is not a Biblical concept! There is no such thing as entitlement in God’s plan. We are commanded to exercise charity not promote a bloated govenment in hopes that they will do the dirty job for us–precisely the Democratic agenda!

    I agree with one of the other responses: I am not praising McCain in any particular way. The best a vote for McCain can be is a vote against Barack Hussein Obama. But perhaps that’s a good start. At least I can not think of anything better to do to oppose an anti-Christian radical in sheep’s clothing.

  57. Dean, very nice way at putting it. I think Donny is hitting it on the head about the heart change but we cannot think that anything good will come if we step out of the legislative process completely. You basically summed up my thoughts on that. Some people will not listen even if you show all the love in the world and educate them. Laws still need to be in place and the legislative process still rolls on. Thats just how it is. Even though God is in the business of Grace, His law is still in effect.

    Cool convo!

  58. Dean, very nice way at putting it. I think Donny is hitting it on the head about the heart change but we cannot think that anything good will come if we step out of the legislative process completely. You basically summed up my thoughts on that. Some people will not listen even if you show all the love in the world and educate them. Laws still need to be in place and the legislative process still rolls on. Thats just how it is. Even though God is in the business of Grace, His law is still in effect.

    Cool convo!

  59. I start by saying I am completely Pro-Life. But there has to be more than a single issue that molds my vote.

    For years, like Donny, I have been registered GOP. Many believe that it is our Christian duty to vote “Conservative.” I believe it is my obligation to vote with a compassionate mindset.

    Many from within the Morale Majority have made abortion their only issue, minus the recent peppering of Homosexuality and same sex marriage outrage.

    While focused on this issue (reactive formation) and railing against Abortionist, Pro Choicers, and those who have had an abortion, they missed the mark. I’ve yet to hear OR see those who rail the loudest adopt themselves.

    Show me one who has opened an adoption home in their own home. Has the issue been addressed. They scream for life to be preserved, but won’t sacrifice their own privacy, their own world, or their own agenda to adopt. I am sure someone has. Send the link.

    But those who screamed the loudest, in my experience, haven’t.

    Imagine, if just a few of the nearly 70 million evangelicals opted for adoption, foster homes would emptied In 1999, the latest year for which totals have been finalized, there were about 581,000 children in foster care in the United States. Twenty-two percent of these children -about 127,000 kids – were available for adoption. The difference in numbers is that 59% of kids in foster care are on a path to be reunited with their birth parents. Only 16% are available for adoption.

    “With 69.5 million American adults devoted to the Evangelical lifestyle, the current and still-growing societal and monetary clout of this cohort is impossible to ignore. In 2006, household income among Evangelicals represented 28% of the national total, or $2.1 trillion”

    Out of 69.5 million Americans, only 127,000 needs to open their home to see that a life here, a child, can be loved, accepted, and cared for.

    When making the list of the immoralities in our society, let’s not forget the greatest of them all, “….to love not.”

    It seems that many of the ‘Moral Majority’ hang their ideological issues hat on their favorite two moral issues. While complete campaigns have been built around these two areas, hundreds of other social atrocities go ignored.

    When was the last time a fundamentalist or self proclaimed moralist on the Right championed against poverty, the crisis of health care, or any other social justice. Rare if ever.

    Instead, most are myopic and missing in action in the public’s cry for reform.

    Consider this…

    Unaddressed poverty is immoral.
    Greed is immoral.
    Basic needs being ignored; that is immoral.
    A child without access to a dentist or a doctor is immoral.
    Hunger and unaccessible clean water; these are a few of the modern day atrocities.

    But instead, many choose their one “immoral issue” and hang their vote there.

    To think that we will ever find a candidate that will represent all of our ideological pillars is a fantasy. Instead, take the candidates that are available and a do a side by side analysis.

    Take Isaiah 61 and put it on one side. Place Barack, John, Ralph and the rest on the other side. See which one most closely echoes the heartbeat of that prophet.

    PS: Vote Obama.

    Jason Harper
    http://www.jasonharper.cc

  60. I start by saying I am completely Pro-Life. But there has to be more than a single issue that molds my vote.

    For years, like Donny, I have been registered GOP. Many believe that it is our Christian duty to vote “Conservative.” I believe it is my obligation to vote with a compassionate mindset.

    Many from within the Morale Majority have made abortion their only issue, minus the recent peppering of Homosexuality and same sex marriage outrage.

    While focused on this issue (reactive formation) and railing against Abortionist, Pro Choicers, and those who have had an abortion, they missed the mark. I’ve yet to hear OR see those who rail the loudest adopt themselves.

    Show me one who has opened an adoption home in their own home. Has the issue been addressed. They scream for life to be preserved, but won’t sacrifice their own privacy, their own world, or their own agenda to adopt. I am sure someone has. Send the link.

    But those who screamed the loudest, in my experience, haven’t.

    Imagine, if just a few of the nearly 70 million evangelicals opted for adoption, foster homes would emptied In 1999, the latest year for which totals have been finalized, there were about 581,000 children in foster care in the United States. Twenty-two percent of these children -about 127,000 kids – were available for adoption. The difference in numbers is that 59% of kids in foster care are on a path to be reunited with their birth parents. Only 16% are available for adoption.

    “With 69.5 million American adults devoted to the Evangelical lifestyle, the current and still-growing societal and monetary clout of this cohort is impossible to ignore. In 2006, household income among Evangelicals represented 28% of the national total, or $2.1 trillion”

    Out of 69.5 million Americans, only 127,000 needs to open their home to see that a life here, a child, can be loved, accepted, and cared for.

    When making the list of the immoralities in our society, let’s not forget the greatest of them all, “….to love not.”

    It seems that many of the ‘Moral Majority’ hang their ideological issues hat on their favorite two moral issues. While complete campaigns have been built around these two areas, hundreds of other social atrocities go ignored.

    When was the last time a fundamentalist or self proclaimed moralist on the Right championed against poverty, the crisis of health care, or any other social justice. Rare if ever.

    Instead, most are myopic and missing in action in the public’s cry for reform.

    Consider this…

    Unaddressed poverty is immoral.
    Greed is immoral.
    Basic needs being ignored; that is immoral.
    A child without access to a dentist or a doctor is immoral.
    Hunger and unaccessible clean water; these are a few of the modern day atrocities.

    But instead, many choose their one “immoral issue” and hang their vote there.

    To think that we will ever find a candidate that will represent all of our ideological pillars is a fantasy. Instead, take the candidates that are available and a do a side by side analysis.

    Take Isaiah 61 and put it on one side. Place Barack, John, Ralph and the rest on the other side. See which one most closely echoes the heartbeat of that prophet.

    PS: Vote Obama.

    Jason Harper
    http://www.jasonharper.cc

  61. Dean – I can’t thank you enough for your thoughts. You truly put to words exactly what I’ve been feeling/thinking these last few months.

    Donny – Thanks for starting this convo. I completely agree that hearts need to be changed. I’m in!

    I also want to mention something that is not entirely my original thought, but I heard it somewhere and wish more people thought about:

    I don’t believe it’s not fair to lable someone pro-choice or pro-life. I’m 100% pro-life, but I also consider myself pro-choice. How?
    – I’m free to “choose” to have sexual relations with someone, knowing full well I may get pregnant.
    – I’m free to “choose” to use protection if I “choose” to have sexual relations.
    – I’m free to “choose” go to a library and research contraception/adoption and get educated on these subjects.
    – I’m free to give God the “choice” on whether my unborn baby lives or dies.
    – I’m free to “choose” to give my unborn baby up for adoption.
    – I’m free to CHOOSE!
    There are a lot more “choices” involved w/ having a baby than just abortion. I’m pro-choice AND pro-life.

    Vote McCain!!

    Lindsay

  62. Dean – I can’t thank you enough for your thoughts. You truly put to words exactly what I’ve been feeling/thinking these last few months.

    Donny – Thanks for starting this convo. I completely agree that hearts need to be changed. I’m in!

    I also want to mention something that is not entirely my original thought, but I heard it somewhere and wish more people thought about:

    I don’t believe it’s not fair to lable someone pro-choice or pro-life. I’m 100% pro-life, but I also consider myself pro-choice. How?
    – I’m free to “choose” to have sexual relations with someone, knowing full well I may get pregnant.
    – I’m free to “choose” to use protection if I “choose” to have sexual relations.
    – I’m free to “choose” go to a library and research contraception/adoption and get educated on these subjects.
    – I’m free to give God the “choice” on whether my unborn baby lives or dies.
    – I’m free to “choose” to give my unborn baby up for adoption.
    – I’m free to CHOOSE!
    There are a lot more “choices” involved w/ having a baby than just abortion. I’m pro-choice AND pro-life.

    Vote McCain!!

    Lindsay

  63. Donny,

    Thanks for the post. I share many of your feelings. I believe our country is in a mess. It is time for a change.

    Alan

  64. Donny,

    Thanks for the post. I share many of your feelings. I believe our country is in a mess. It is time for a change.

    Alan

  65. I don’t know if you have found LarkNews.com yet or not. Here is a link that makes a similar point.
    http://larknews.com/january_2003/secondary.php?header=header&page=baptist_republican

    Alan

  66. I don’t know if you have found LarkNews.com yet or not. Here is a link that makes a similar point.
    http://larknews.com/january_2003/secondary.php?header=header&page=baptist_republican

    Alan

  67. Before you go and label me a Republican… in 2 of the the last 4 elections I voted for neither of the two parties and this one I will vote for a 3rd party once again. Unless one of those two repents, I’ll never vote for them again.

    I really hate to say this, but anyone who votes for the Democrats and Obama isn’t awake quite honestly. If you think the Republican’s haven’t been honest with you, think about how DISHONEST the Democrats INCLUDING Barack Obama have been.

    – Obama was just endorsed by Planned Parenthood. With the INTENDED purpose and actual TAPE recordings of PURPOSEFUL extermination of blacks, they’re SINGLARY responsible for the eradication of millions upon millions of blacks in this country. And over the world it’s even higher.

    – Obama has changed his view on what he’d do in Iraq 2 times already. How can you believe him just on that?

    – Seems like he’s received some funny loans for housing from a friend who’s probably going to do some serious time in the slammer.

    – He doesn’t know his pastor uses such inflamatory and racial remarks and he’s gone to the church for 20+ years?

    – He supports abortion on demand – That’s not very biblical

    – Supports homosexual marriage – Not biblical and not really a federal issue to begin with mind you.

    – Supports Federal schools. This ALONE should make a practicing Christian weary! Evolution based on known lies such as butterflies, Close enough spelling – Ah, Joanne doesn’t need to really know how to spell. We’ve got computers for that!, History devoid of truth in many cases.

    – Welfare that encourages MORE people on welfare rolls instead of off of them. Do you REALLY think that supplying someone’s ever physical need gets them off of the welfare rolls?

    – Truth? Abortion alone has lies on both sides long enough to go around the world a few times.

    – How about the Democrats who continue to not say we can afford all of the entittlement programs when the countries they like to note are actually pulling back on their programs?

    – Povety? – Democrats give handouts, not a hand up. Nobody gets off of welfare unless the entire welfare system is either abolished or totally revamped. Can’t happen with Dems because that’s a large part of their constituency.

    Povety is YOUR job. YOU are the church. YOU are supposed to feed, cloth and shelter people. Not the govt.

  68. Before you go and label me a Republican… in 2 of the the last 4 elections I voted for neither of the two parties and this one I will vote for a 3rd party once again. Unless one of those two repents, I’ll never vote for them again.

    I really hate to say this, but anyone who votes for the Democrats and Obama isn’t awake quite honestly. If you think the Republican’s haven’t been honest with you, think about how DISHONEST the Democrats INCLUDING Barack Obama have been.

    – Obama was just endorsed by Planned Parenthood. With the INTENDED purpose and actual TAPE recordings of PURPOSEFUL extermination of blacks, they’re SINGLARY responsible for the eradication of millions upon millions of blacks in this country. And over the world it’s even higher.

    – Obama has changed his view on what he’d do in Iraq 2 times already. How can you believe him just on that?

    – Seems like he’s received some funny loans for housing from a friend who’s probably going to do some serious time in the slammer.

    – He doesn’t know his pastor uses such inflamatory and racial remarks and he’s gone to the church for 20+ years?

    – He supports abortion on demand – That’s not very biblical

    – Supports homosexual marriage – Not biblical and not really a federal issue to begin with mind you.

    – Supports Federal schools. This ALONE should make a practicing Christian weary! Evolution based on known lies such as butterflies, Close enough spelling – Ah, Joanne doesn’t need to really know how to spell. We’ve got computers for that!, History devoid of truth in many cases.

    – Welfare that encourages MORE people on welfare rolls instead of off of them. Do you REALLY think that supplying someone’s ever physical need gets them off of the welfare rolls?

    – Truth? Abortion alone has lies on both sides long enough to go around the world a few times.

    – How about the Democrats who continue to not say we can afford all of the entittlement programs when the countries they like to note are actually pulling back on their programs?

    – Povety? – Democrats give handouts, not a hand up. Nobody gets off of welfare unless the entire welfare system is either abolished or totally revamped. Can’t happen with Dems because that’s a large part of their constituency.

    Povety is YOUR job. YOU are the church. YOU are supposed to feed, cloth and shelter people. Not the govt.

  69. Lew, You are ignorant. Barack Obama has never stated that he supports abortion on demand. He says that abortion should be safe, legal, and rare. I know that he supports more funding for birth control. You are wrong that Obama wants to encourage people to be on welfare, when in fact he supports more job opportunities and putting people to work. The thing is that today’s Republicans and people like you care more about people when they aren’t born yet, but not about people once they are alive. You all oppose more money for education, spending for more affordable housing, better health care, and the list goes on and on. Oh, but you’ll stand in front of a family planning clinic to intimidate people from obtaining services and treatment that they need and saving the “unborn!” And before you say that I support “abortion on demand,” again I agree with Obama’s position that I mentioned above. What I do support is promoting more birth control programs. I say that family life course must be taught in our schools, and these courses must be mandatory just like English, Math, and Science. Our youngsters must be taught BOTH about abstinence and the use of birth control. Parents should be teaching their children this but many don’t.

    As for what your statement that Obama “supports homosexual marriage – Not biblical and not really a federal issue to begin with mind you,” you are wrong on that too. Obama says that Gay marriage is a matter for the states to decide, but that he supports civil unions and giving Gay and Lesbian partners the same rights as heterosexuals. I say that you are a bigot! When you say that Gay marriage is not biblical, there are religious leaders who state that no where in the Bible does it say that Gay marriage is a sin. However, didn’t Jesus say that “Let him who is without sin cast the first stone” and “Love thy neighbor as thyself?” I say enough of you judgmental bigots!

  70. Lew, You are ignorant. Barack Obama has never stated that he supports abortion on demand. He says that abortion should be safe, legal, and rare. I know that he supports more funding for birth control. You are wrong that Obama wants to encourage people to be on welfare, when in fact he supports more job opportunities and putting people to work. The thing is that today’s Republicans and people like you care more about people when they aren’t born yet, but not about people once they are alive. You all oppose more money for education, spending for more affordable housing, better health care, and the list goes on and on. Oh, but you’ll stand in front of a family planning clinic to intimidate people from obtaining services and treatment that they need and saving the “unborn!” And before you say that I support “abortion on demand,” again I agree with Obama’s position that I mentioned above. What I do support is promoting more birth control programs. I say that family life course must be taught in our schools, and these courses must be mandatory just like English, Math, and Science. Our youngsters must be taught BOTH about abstinence and the use of birth control. Parents should be teaching their children this but many don’t.

    As for what your statement that Obama “supports homosexual marriage – Not biblical and not really a federal issue to begin with mind you,” you are wrong on that too. Obama says that Gay marriage is a matter for the states to decide, but that he supports civil unions and giving Gay and Lesbian partners the same rights as heterosexuals. I say that you are a bigot! When you say that Gay marriage is not biblical, there are religious leaders who state that no where in the Bible does it say that Gay marriage is a sin. However, didn’t Jesus say that “Let him who is without sin cast the first stone” and “Love thy neighbor as thyself?” I say enough of you judgmental bigots!

  71. Dear Donny,
    I’m probably late to the party on this one and maybe no one will be reading it, but here goes anyway. Also, don’t know if anyone else has made these points so please forgive any redundancy.
    Ever since you’ve posted this blog, I’ve been wanting to respond to it but have had so much going on in my life in terms of making ends meet, salvaging my bank account, my credit, not losing my home (not due to the recent mortgage issue, just a drastic loss of income due to being laid off nearly 2 years ago), etc (which gives me a personal insight into some of the issues that are being tossed around by the Democratic hopefuls for President, that I think gives me a deeper sense of where this is all at) , especially given that the DNC is going on even as I write, that I only have a moment now to write and will try to be quick and to the point.
    1. First I think it presumptuous for the Republican Party to assume that to have let the “drive by media” choose McCain, because they assumed that the battle would be between Hilary and he, that immediately Conservatives would rush to his side. However, at the same time, while Conservatives could make a statement through their actions against McCain, to prove a point…he needs them to win, I don’t think now or in this scenario is the time to make such a statement as a greater issue is at stake. While I don’t necessarily like McCain, I believe of the two, I would choose the better of the two evils.
    2. I believe this notion put forth by Obama summed up in the word “Change”, reminds me of the Twilight Zone episode where a book by Martians who were about to invade Earth, that was titled “To Serve Man”, only for the Earthlings to realize at the last moment, that what this book was, is a cook book, and man was what was to be served. The word “change” with Obama and the whole DNC to me is a Trojan horse. Aside from the fact that Obama has indeed “changed” several times on issues, not because of substance, but for convenience and as his pastor of 20 years said (and a pastor of that tenure should know his congregant/parishioner), that what he is doing is for “political expediency”. This is in addition to my sense that the DNC is possibly giving us a snow job with rhetoric that sounds “Christian” in order to appeal to this population, though it completely opposes their liberal history of declaring, legislating and pushing an agenda of “separation of Church and State”. Likewise, if there is a smaller % of rich and a greater % of poor, rhetoric against the rich will most certainly appeal to the greater mass, thus, potentially sealing their victory in a national vote. In any event, anything that has the right tone, right “message”, right heartfelt appeal, to gain the greatest response…to borrow Voight’s revelatory accusation, Hitler did the same and so will any other, who takes on the right cue’s and themes, to the ultimate demise of reason and reality.
    3. As per the war and whether or not it is for oil as a Michael Moorism conspiracy, the last I heard, our soldiers and military are paying $4/gallon in Iraq like everyone else. Or that except for a few rogue soldiers, we are not ransacking, raping and killing innocent Iraqis or being imperialistic in our approach to countries such as Iraq. I know for a fact that though the threat of nuclear potential was the driving idea behind going to Iraq, that hundreds of Iraqi’s were also “pounding on Washington’s door” to do something on behalf of the Iraqis who were innocently being killed by Hussein (check out this video) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X35rhitzKPQ&feature=related
    4. Being a recent needy recipient of social services, and seeing the complete ludicrous policies that set it’s parameters and target “needy”, to hear Obama and others declare that the Bush Tax Cuts favor the rich, please by all means read this following article: http://www.letxa.com/articles/9 To summarize, if the rich pay most of the taxes collected by the IRS, even with all of their loopholes, it would stand to reason that the rich benefit the most from any tax cuts. To show how foolish the baby of the liberal “help the poor” structure of social services is, I paid for nearly 30 years into the system, but I cannot access some of their services, because until I finally succumb to bankruptcy, I’m not poor enough, even though I am now working at nearly minimum wage. If this system is the same one that is suppose to run the supposed healthcare put forth by either an Obama or a Hilary, so that “every” American has coverage, then they can surely keep it. The best they can do right now doesn’t even provide me adequate healthcare that they currently have available and it runs along the “poor” man’s services that really stinks…my wife who has need of more medical care than I can’t even get the services she needs, and those they are suggesting are too far away, compared to what we had when I had a good job and had a choice. Social Services like so much of the “help” the government offers as a result of liberal efforts, make me depend completely on them or else there is nothing. Instead of supplementing, I have to depend on them completely…it takes away my independence, even though I have paid into it for so long. If this system makes you feel like it’s better you do nothing, rather than work and end up with less, then it’s a system I’d prefer not have…there’s enough recipients sitting in front of a TV with their remotes who do nothing and feel that someone owes them something, that I don’t want to be a part of that – but based on what I have heard from Obama and Hilary (though she’s still could have something up her sleeve), this all sounds the same to me… no change here, just more of the same, just dressed up differently. In one of their first debates, in LA among the Hollywood elite, rich to say the least, Hilary sat up so cozy and confident to say, using Conservative rhetoric, about helping the poor and getting everyone healthcare, that “Jesus would want us to be good Samaritans” implying that as Democrats, as oppose to the “Christian” Republican’s, do more to help the poor. Then when it came to Obama’s turn, he looked at the audience, suggesting togetherness with the audience in terms of being wealthy, that he believed it was all of their moral responsibility to do more for the poor. Again a Conservative rhetoric that taunts at the Christian Republicans who are “rich” and could care less for the poor. Sure it is a moral responsibility of those who are well to do, to help those less fortunate. But if I were rich, I’d find creative, comprehensive and choice ways to help the poor…as I did when I earned more, and certainly do through my church and Christian organizations, as opposed to giving…or should I say, have taken from me, by the government to do what it deems important to help the poor, such as support Planned Parenthood’s undisclosed and secret intent on diminishing the poor population through abortion, especially the African American community. Besides this “Moral” exercise by the government, this is coming from the party that declares that you can’t legislate morality, when it comes to abstinence, etc…isn’t this a legislation of morality as Obama puts it, to have the government take more from the rich because they should be moved to help the poor. If all of the pork was removed from our taxes, I am sure a lot more could be done for the poor that is comprehensive, than what is going on now. People complained when tax payer monies were lessened that went to the Endowment for the Arts…boohoo, I’m for helping poor kids with their music development, and artistic abilities, but let the very industry that we are already supporting through our CD purchases, movies and theaters, etc. (a multibillion dollar industry at that) support such an effort…after all, it eventually benefits them as they self support the future representatives of that industry…why should my tax dollars do that?
    5. Though Sean Hannity and Rush Limbaugh have had problems with Jeremiah Wright’s rhetoric a few months back when it was finally covered by the “drive by media”, I beg to differ on him slightly. The notion that America deserved the 9-11 attacks due to our failures, racism, etc as Wright points out, “it’s in the bible”. I would like to correct him by saying that often when Israel was attacked by foreign countries, it was sometimes because they were trying to take away from Israel what God had promised them, but so often, and probably more often, it wasn’t because of their idolatry and other sins, as much as it was because they had backslidden from God. In other words they sinned and fell into idolatry and became the harlot, because they had backslidden from God…America has done likewise. The 9-11 attacks brought us to our knees…at least for a moment…but we are a stiff-necked people.
    6. Anyway, I am sure I had other thoughts swimming around in my head while contemplating this over the last few weeks, but I for now, I close with this thought: When I think of the issue of the poor, of which right now I am one of them, I have this to say…or should I say, Jesus had this to say: Mark 14:7:
    “For you always have the poor with you, and whenever you wish you can do good to them; but you will not always have Me.” Amplified Bible However, to reiterate this Trojan horse theory I have about Change and everything else the DNC is putting out there, I think of Judas who was upset with the prostitute who washed Jesus feet with her tears and expensive perfume, saying, think how we could have sold the perfume and helped the poor…this notion of Evangelicals flocking to the essential left because of the “issues”, they may not realize that they may be getting a snow job. Mind you, not that disgust with Republicans isn’t a valid issue, but I prefer the better of the two evils, if I had to vote on it.

  72. Dear Donny,
    I’m probably late to the party on this one and maybe no one will be reading it, but here goes anyway. Also, don’t know if anyone else has made these points so please forgive any redundancy.
    Ever since you’ve posted this blog, I’ve been wanting to respond to it but have had so much going on in my life in terms of making ends meet, salvaging my bank account, my credit, not losing my home (not due to the recent mortgage issue, just a drastic loss of income due to being laid off nearly 2 years ago), etc (which gives me a personal insight into some of the issues that are being tossed around by the Democratic hopefuls for President, that I think gives me a deeper sense of where this is all at) , especially given that the DNC is going on even as I write, that I only have a moment now to write and will try to be quick and to the point.
    1. First I think it presumptuous for the Republican Party to assume that to have let the “drive by media” choose McCain, because they assumed that the battle would be between Hilary and he, that immediately Conservatives would rush to his side. However, at the same time, while Conservatives could make a statement through their actions against McCain, to prove a point…he needs them to win, I don’t think now or in this scenario is the time to make such a statement as a greater issue is at stake. While I don’t necessarily like McCain, I believe of the two, I would choose the better of the two evils.
    2. I believe this notion put forth by Obama summed up in the word “Change”, reminds me of the Twilight Zone episode where a book by Martians who were about to invade Earth, that was titled “To Serve Man”, only for the Earthlings to realize at the last moment, that what this book was, is a cook book, and man was what was to be served. The word “change” with Obama and the whole DNC to me is a Trojan horse. Aside from the fact that Obama has indeed “changed” several times on issues, not because of substance, but for convenience and as his pastor of 20 years said (and a pastor of that tenure should know his congregant/parishioner), that what he is doing is for “political expediency”. This is in addition to my sense that the DNC is possibly giving us a snow job with rhetoric that sounds “Christian” in order to appeal to this population, though it completely opposes their liberal history of declaring, legislating and pushing an agenda of “separation of Church and State”. Likewise, if there is a smaller % of rich and a greater % of poor, rhetoric against the rich will most certainly appeal to the greater mass, thus, potentially sealing their victory in a national vote. In any event, anything that has the right tone, right “message”, right heartfelt appeal, to gain the greatest response…to borrow Voight’s revelatory accusation, Hitler did the same and so will any other, who takes on the right cue’s and themes, to the ultimate demise of reason and reality.
    3. As per the war and whether or not it is for oil as a Michael Moorism conspiracy, the last I heard, our soldiers and military are paying $4/gallon in Iraq like everyone else. Or that except for a few rogue soldiers, we are not ransacking, raping and killing innocent Iraqis or being imperialistic in our approach to countries such as Iraq. I know for a fact that though the threat of nuclear potential was the driving idea behind going to Iraq, that hundreds of Iraqi’s were also “pounding on Washington’s door” to do something on behalf of the Iraqis who were innocently being killed by Hussein (check out this video) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X35rhitzKPQ&feature=related
    4. Being a recent needy recipient of social services, and seeing the complete ludicrous policies that set it’s parameters and target “needy”, to hear Obama and others declare that the Bush Tax Cuts favor the rich, please by all means read this following article: http://www.letxa.com/articles/9 To summarize, if the rich pay most of the taxes collected by the IRS, even with all of their loopholes, it would stand to reason that the rich benefit the most from any tax cuts. To show how foolish the baby of the liberal “help the poor” structure of social services is, I paid for nearly 30 years into the system, but I cannot access some of their services, because until I finally succumb to bankruptcy, I’m not poor enough, even though I am now working at nearly minimum wage. If this system is the same one that is suppose to run the supposed healthcare put forth by either an Obama or a Hilary, so that “every” American has coverage, then they can surely keep it. The best they can do right now doesn’t even provide me adequate healthcare that they currently have available and it runs along the “poor” man’s services that really stinks…my wife who has need of more medical care than I can’t even get the services she needs, and those they are suggesting are too far away, compared to what we had when I had a good job and had a choice. Social Services like so much of the “help” the government offers as a result of liberal efforts, make me depend completely on them or else there is nothing. Instead of supplementing, I have to depend on them completely…it takes away my independence, even though I have paid into it for so long. If this system makes you feel like it’s better you do nothing, rather than work and end up with less, then it’s a system I’d prefer not have…there’s enough recipients sitting in front of a TV with their remotes who do nothing and feel that someone owes them something, that I don’t want to be a part of that – but based on what I have heard from Obama and Hilary (though she’s still could have something up her sleeve), this all sounds the same to me… no change here, just more of the same, just dressed up differently. In one of their first debates, in LA among the Hollywood elite, rich to say the least, Hilary sat up so cozy and confident to say, using Conservative rhetoric, about helping the poor and getting everyone healthcare, that “Jesus would want us to be good Samaritans” implying that as Democrats, as oppose to the “Christian” Republican’s, do more to help the poor. Then when it came to Obama’s turn, he looked at the audience, suggesting togetherness with the audience in terms of being wealthy, that he believed it was all of their moral responsibility to do more for the poor. Again a Conservative rhetoric that taunts at the Christian Republicans who are “rich” and could care less for the poor. Sure it is a moral responsibility of those who are well to do, to help those less fortunate. But if I were rich, I’d find creative, comprehensive and choice ways to help the poor…as I did when I earned more, and certainly do through my church and Christian organizations, as opposed to giving…or should I say, have taken from me, by the government to do what it deems important to help the poor, such as support Planned Parenthood’s undisclosed and secret intent on diminishing the poor population through abortion, especially the African American community. Besides this “Moral” exercise by the government, this is coming from the party that declares that you can’t legislate morality, when it comes to abstinence, etc…isn’t this a legislation of morality as Obama puts it, to have the government take more from the rich because they should be moved to help the poor. If all of the pork was removed from our taxes, I am sure a lot more could be done for the poor that is comprehensive, than what is going on now. People complained when tax payer monies were lessened that went to the Endowment for the Arts…boohoo, I’m for helping poor kids with their music development, and artistic abilities, but let the very industry that we are already supporting through our CD purchases, movies and theaters, etc. (a multibillion dollar industry at that) support such an effort…after all, it eventually benefits them as they self support the future representatives of that industry…why should my tax dollars do that?
    5. Though Sean Hannity and Rush Limbaugh have had problems with Jeremiah Wright’s rhetoric a few months back when it was finally covered by the “drive by media”, I beg to differ on him slightly. The notion that America deserved the 9-11 attacks due to our failures, racism, etc as Wright points out, “it’s in the bible”. I would like to correct him by saying that often when Israel was attacked by foreign countries, it was sometimes because they were trying to take away from Israel what God had promised them, but so often, and probably more often, it wasn’t because of their idolatry and other sins, as much as it was because they had backslidden from God. In other words they sinned and fell into idolatry and became the harlot, because they had backslidden from God…America has done likewise. The 9-11 attacks brought us to our knees…at least for a moment…but we are a stiff-necked people.
    6. Anyway, I am sure I had other thoughts swimming around in my head while contemplating this over the last few weeks, but I for now, I close with this thought: When I think of the issue of the poor, of which right now I am one of them, I have this to say…or should I say, Jesus had this to say: Mark 14:7:
    “For you always have the poor with you, and whenever you wish you can do good to them; but you will not always have Me.” Amplified Bible However, to reiterate this Trojan horse theory I have about Change and everything else the DNC is putting out there, I think of Judas who was upset with the prostitute who washed Jesus feet with her tears and expensive perfume, saying, think how we could have sold the perfume and helped the poor…this notion of Evangelicals flocking to the essential left because of the “issues”, they may not realize that they may be getting a snow job. Mind you, not that disgust with Republicans isn’t a valid issue, but I prefer the better of the two evils, if I had to vote on it.

  73. The Supreme Court has done nothing? The GOP has done nothing on abortion? You must have missed Laci and Conner’s law, and the ban on partial birth abortions. The latter was signed by the President and was upheld by only a 5-4 vote of the Supreme Court (a ruling Obama denounced). Without Bush’s appointees that would not have happened. Your comments on that indicate you don’t follow the news very often as those were very significant events at best, or at worse, you are not telling the truth. In either case, you are wrong.

  74. The Supreme Court has done nothing? The GOP has done nothing on abortion? You must have missed Laci and Conner’s law, and the ban on partial birth abortions. The latter was signed by the President and was upheld by only a 5-4 vote of the Supreme Court (a ruling Obama denounced). Without Bush’s appointees that would not have happened. Your comments on that indicate you don’t follow the news very often as those were very significant events at best, or at worse, you are not telling the truth. In either case, you are wrong.

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